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#2 Get Right, Church!

So, let’s talk about me! :-)

I am a believer who is committed to living the way of Jesus Christ, God incarnate. I accept and respect the Bible as the inspired word of God and believe it is meant to draw me into deeper relationship with Him, through His Holy Spirit. Part of looking at life through this lens has been my conclusion that homosexual sex is a sin (which is in line with the beliefs of mainstream Christian churches – and I assume that’s representative of most of my blog commenters). However, I don’t believe having same-sex attractions (hereafter referred to as SSA) is sinful… after all, none of us get to choose what we are tempted by. Others in this camp of belief would include (though you may not be aware you’re sitting beside them on Sunday) people who experience unwanted homosexual feelings and choose to depend on God in order to live a life that is not mastered by them. Some may never disclose this part of themselves while others take the risk of finding a safe place to reveal their struggle. Some will marry, believing that these feelings will go away or at least diminish. You may have heard the term ex-gay used, which I’m not a big fan of & we’ll discuss why in a later post.

It’s not all about me though…

At the same time, I am in relationship (close friends) with people who have come to different conclusions in their Biblical interpretations of whether or not homosexuality is sin. Most believe that they were created to be attracted to their same gender – that it is right and natural. What may surprise most of you is that none of them came to these decisions lightly. They wrestled with God, scripture and their feelings and they asked the hard questions.  That deserves respect. These friends would deem themselves gay Christians (embracing a gay theology approach to God). Most will attempt to find churches who share their same beliefs. Others in this camp (who do not believe homosexuality is a sin) may reject the Bible altogether or embrace an alternative form of spirituality. These are the folks you probably don’t notice as you drive by them in your rush to the church building on Sunday.

So, this puts me in a difficult position – between my rock (God) and the hard stuff. That is where these conversations were born. There is a gap between these two fundamental beliefs that I think Satan uses to keep us from interacting. Both sides are deeply convicted and therefore unwilling to shift. (This seemingly impossible situation is not unique. We experience the same frustrations in our worship wars and certainly in politics among many other things…)

So, how can I stand in this gap?

What if…

What if the first step is to accept that this is our reality without attempting to alter it? In order to have conversations, each camp must stop trying to convert/influence the other by proclaiming who is right and who is wrong. This is particularly difficult for Christians to do since we claim that drawing these lines is part of our great commission. But do we have any other goals rather than being right or saving souls?

That sounds sacrilegious, but what if relationship is the initial goal in all impossible situations and saving is God’s job? Can we let go of our ulterior motives [gotta make them believe like us, quit living in sin or be straight!] in order to be in a mutual life-giving relationship? This doesn’t mean you let go of your convictions - only that you commit to the greatest command of loving God and loving others. All of the law and the prophets hang on those two commandments – THAT’S BIG!!! Loving relationship provides the only substantial grounds for either side to speak a different perspective into a person’s life anyway. You’ll only amount to a talking head and a clanging cymbal without that kind of love.

You’ll notice that the dividing line revolves around whether or not homosexuality is a sin rather than who believes in God and who doesn’t! I vote for no dividing lines whatsoever, but isn’t it interesting where we chose to draw these lines?  

It is not a betrayal of who you are in Christ to be inclusive rather than exclusive. 

So, we need to repent for being straight and narrow-minded! Yeah, it takes two to tango, but we are only responsible for our own actions and inactions. Nothing breaks down barriers like humility and vulnerability. I think it’s a great place to start.

I know most of you are chomping at the bit to discuss the big questions, particularly the origins/causes of homosexuality. By delaying that discussion, my intent was to show how we gravitate toward wanting to know all the “right answers” much more than we gravitate toward understanding the plight of the person who lives it! But you guys are ready for more!  I’m re-working the posts as we go, praying about it and trying to take my cues from God. Thanks for your patience…

Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 at 04:03PM by Registered CommenterAngie | Comments22 Comments

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Reader Comments (22)

This was a great place to start! We always need to be reminded to love each other and "play fair" when approaching touchy subjects like this one. I've seen so many people get "worked up" and emotional over this topic to the point that they start thinking of their fellow brothers and sisters (who are homosexuals) as the enemy rather than Satan/sin as the enemy. Big mistake! We're all fellow strugglers on this journey and in order for anyone to change they must first feel loved. I appreciate you setting the tone for this discussion in this way, Angie.=)
Oct 17, 2006 at 04:55PM | Unregistered Commentercrittermer
I think one if the best examples of this idea of accepting that individuals have their own viewpoints and are ok with that, without feeling the need to trying and change the other person’s view, is Tony and Peggy Campolo. They are a married couple in ministry for something like 25 or 30 years and they have recently had a call into ministry to the gay community.
Tony’s viewpoint is more like yours, Angie, he feels homosexuality itself isn’t a sin, but acting on it is. But his wife Peggy feels that acting on it is not a sin in a life long committed relationship. They both go around and lecture on their viewpoints on this, and if anyone is interested, the link below is to a site that has downloads with audio of them both explaining how they worked though their differences and what those differences are. I think its very interesting and could add something to this discussion.

http://www.gaychristian.net/campolos.php
Oct 17, 2006 at 05:16PM | Unregistered CommenterBrian
Sorry I keep coming back with double posts.. but I keep thinking of things...

It may (or may not) surprise you that this is even debated in the gay community and that both sides even have names.
There are gay people who are not interested in becoming “ex-gay” they know that is not possible and don’t desire to try, but believe that gay people are called to celibacy. Within the gay Christian community they are called “side B”.
“Side A” are gay people who do not believe that god blessed same sex relationships.

Both sides of the issue are discussed here for any who are interested: http://www.gaychristian.net/greatdebate.php?
Oct 17, 2006 at 06:25PM | Unregistered CommenterBrian
Pronouncing judgement upon another person is about the quickest way to shut down meaningful communication with that person from my experience.

I do not think it's my job to convict anyone of sin--that's the job of the Holy Spirit.
Oct 17, 2006 at 09:35PM | Unregistered Commenterjettybetty
Well, the great atmosphere continues (without the coffee). Some great points. If I can add a suggestion, often issue discussions have end up with someone in intellectual exhaustion and they just do the equivelant of sitting in the stands and yelling insults. If you find yourself with nothing to say or wanting to attack, just shut up for a while and listen.

But what do I know. Oh, and Compolo's book "speaking my mind" has some relevant sections also.
Oct 17, 2006 at 10:00PM | Unregistered CommenterTCS
Got my cup of coffee and I'm listening as I read. This is a great start, Angie. Brian, thanks for your comments and the links that you provide. We are blessed by your presence at this table.
Oct 17, 2006 at 10:14PM | Unregistered CommenterNell
Hello everyone, read the blogs today. Just wanted to voice I'm on board today... not drinking coffee but I had chocolate cake! Good job Angie see you in the morning here on the same happy channel.
Oct 17, 2006 at 11:08PM | Unregistered CommenterAmy G
CRITTER, this post was old news to you. I can tell... because I've seen you dole out this same sort of wisdom in other blog conversations on heated subjects. I'm so thankful for you!

BRIAN! Again... such great stuff! Thank you for those links. It's a hefty chunk of info that some of you who are new to these conversations might have to nibble away at (with your cup of coffee!), so keep coming back to it when you can. I've learned 2 new things... Didn't know that about Tony & Peggy Campolo, though I've heard of some Democrat/Republican marriages that have had to reach a similar compromise. AND I didn't know there were terms to describe the SIDE A, SIDE B thing. Good luck with all your packing this week... I've done it more times than I can count!

JETTY BETTY... You're just so darn quotable! "I do not think it's my job to convict anyone of sin--that's the job of the Holy Spirit." That's such a keeper.

TCS, you add to the great atmosphere! Thanks for the suggestion. Goes right along with a proverb I just read over at RUSH FILES: “Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.” And, uh... loving the Flight of the Conchords clip over at your blog!!! I tried to comment on it but kept deleting it... Everything I had to say was questionable!

We love us some NELL! :-)

And AMY G, we'd appreciate it if you'd bring enough chocolate cake for the rest of us next time. I'll be dreaming about it now...

TO ALL!
I could've really just skipped this post b/c I believe we're on the same page. But my hope is that you will be reminded to spread this sentiment among your church families. It takes some people a long time to get here... God willing, it'll be contagious!

Expect another post by noon on Wednesday!
Oct 17, 2006 at 11:48PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
Angie, I'm so glad you didn't skip this post. I know I'm called to "go", but never put it into this context. I want every one to meet me where I am. And if they don't, sadly, I blame them for it. You are right, nothing breaks down barriers like humility and vulnerability. It starts with us!

And Amy, I hope you didn't eat all that chocolate cake.
Oct 18, 2006 at 12:00AM | Unregistered CommenterTim Rush
TIM - dude it is way past your bedtime... 10:35p Pacific time is after midnight your time isn't it? I don't mind you being up with the west-coasters... The best coast is the west coast.

AMY - Michelle and I would love a piece of cake. Is it German Chocolate?

ANGIE - I think it is appropriate to start here. Our fellowship has traditionally been one of exclusion and induced conformity. Come on... I've seen us make people's hermeneutic a salvation issue...

BRIAN - Hang on!! God has sent you reinforcements! You just need to open your eyes, massage your heart and see that it is true. What God has designed in His church, His body, is good and perfect. Sadly it's the people that screw it up. Sometimes the people in the body (I include myself) do a piss-poor job of showing the humility that should come with realizing we've been saved by God's grace & mercy. Brotherhood is determined by parentage, not what some church organization declares.

J
Oct 18, 2006 at 12:57AM | Unregistered CommenterJason Harris
I will confess--even though I may be the only one--I need to work through this with baby steps--so I am glad to start at the very beginning.

I echo your desire to have this spread in our religious communities. God is holy--and He desires His children to be holy. So, somewhere in there our theology evolved into confronting sin in our churches--but only certain sins. For instance, I am convinced the most pervasive sin in the American church (and this definitely includes me) is materialism. Yet, I don't see many confronting the impact that has on the church, because I suppose we've labeled that an acceptable sin (acceptable sin is an oxymoron in my book).

I am a sinner--as much as I don't want to sin--I do--without God's grace I know I could not be His--and I want to extend mercy and grace to anyone who is seeking Jesus as Savior.

German chocolate cake sounds great--I already have my decaf this morning!
Oct 18, 2006 at 06:42AM | Unregistered Commenterjettybetty
It's good to see some familiar faces here... and I'm hoping to get to know some of the ones I don't already know as well.

I'm glad you didn't skip this post, Angie.It's the beginning point for every discussion we could ever have.

JETTYBETTY: Your last comment is so true, and so convicting. It's hard moving from our comfortable positions of "believing the right thing" to *doing* the right thing. I struggle with it daily.

JASON: A Californian? We're transplants to N. Cal for a few years, courtesy of the Air Force.
Oct 18, 2006 at 08:29AM | Unregistered CommenterKaren
All I know (or think I know) is that none of us are born as originally intended by God. I have succumbed to adultery and have struggled with monogamy for ALL of my dating years. This is MY temptation, and yes, I feel like I was born with this particular issue. I think God asks us to do hard things & to struggle against our nature. What "feels right & natural" may not be how God is calling us to live. I just want to die to myself & live for Him. I think I'm going to learn a LOT from these conversations, but mostly I just want to be more compassionate to everyone.

Also, FYI, I was a Theatre Major, so I do have some background with gay people (and still do)

My biggest question (to be addressed later, I'm sure, but I can't help myself) is this: If gay people choose to be gay (which I don't believe) what are they gaining from it? Persecution? Rejection? Feeling isolated? Why would anyone choose that? But let me state that I'm with Angie here - I DO believe that homosexual sex is a sin...just as sex with someone other than my husband is a sin, but even Jesus was tempted in EVERY way....which HAS to, by definition, include homosexually.
Oct 18, 2006 at 09:03AM | Unregistered Commenterbeaner
I don't know if you realize how thin the ice is where you are standing. Most of us have to go "non-denominational" before we can say things like you just said, Angie. I sure wish we could sit and talk sometime. I am amazed at how the words you have shared are almost verbatim the words I have had on my heart for years, and shared with various folks.

Most of us are fortunate to struggle with "safe sins". I mean, as long as we are heterosexual, we have incredible patience with each other and can overlook any sin committed, either in the heart or by the body. We can share each others burdens of alcoholism, pornography, drug-addiction, adultery, and others. There are even "sins" that, if we have them represented in our churches, make us even look more "spiritual" as a church. "We have former prostitutes, gang members, murders...", this actually makes us look better as a church. But if we have anyone who comes to us with the "struggle" of homosexuality, we immediately expect the miraculous to happen (probably because that's the only way we know how to deal with it. If it's not miraculously healed, we don't know what to do or offer the person!).

I fear the day when a gay couple comes to me and asks, "what does the christian life look like for us? Are our feelings for each other wrong? Do we have to act heterosexual now? Can we still live together? Can we hug? Hold hands? What is the hope that we have?"

Honestly, for most of us we would rather people just "act right". That way we don't have to deal with it.

Sorry, this isn't even my blog. I'm being a bloghog (new word?). Just sharing my take....

Thanks Angie. Much love from Tulsa.
Oct 18, 2006 at 09:32AM | Unregistered Commentertheapprentice
I just wanted to say that I appreciate your post, Angie, and the way you are bringing this discussion to our group.

I'll probably just be a fly on the wall through all this, but it will be eye-opening for me. I do not know any gay people (who I know are gay anyway). In reality, I probably do, just don't know about their struggles.

So thank you for your heart and passion to bring this issue to the forefront. I'll be reading and growing through yours and the commentors' thoughts.

Oct 18, 2006 at 09:54AM | Unregistered CommenterAmy
Sometimes I find myself trying to focus on one item that gets my attention. If I were to concentrate on "homosexuality" then I, in my way of thinking, need to establish the difference in how I personally react to the issue,and that reaction is based on the filters of my life that are unique to me. They include my upbringing, my social status (or lack thereof), and my relationship with God. Your "filters " are similiar and unique at the same time. I believe, from what I am reading on this subject, as written on this blog, is the track of response the commentators have taken. The other approach would be from the "God view". Simply, is the issue being discussed something that God has a say about. Does God approve of a homosexual lifestyle? You might as well ask if He approves of a lifestyle built on LIES, or Adultry, or FORNICATION, or the worship of FALSE GODS. My , or your personal convictions, no matter how hard we attempt to make them "scriptual", will fall before God unless they are approved by God. That is why God had Moses put the blue cloth in the robes of the Hebrews. It was so they would trust His word, and His word alone.
Anyway, that is a few thoughts from this traveler.
Oct 18, 2006 at 10:53AM | Unregistered CommenterTraveler
Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together...

I didn't know that applied to gathering online, but He is here. I feel a bit ethereal while reading your comments - sitting here with tears in my eyes because of your humility and honesty and heart. It's much more than I could hope for. I read and re-read... fighting the urge to comment because I don't want to get in the way of what the Spirit is doing! I often do!

TIM, thanks for hanging with us through all this.

JASON, man... you're right. It's so yesterday to fight over inane technicalities. Clever cover of the enemy.

JETTY BETTY, Thanks for tugging at the reigns on my eagerness to move forward! This has been building in my heart for 15 years, so I have a hard time remembering what it looks like to the average person. And what you said about materialism... See, this isn't about homosexuality. It's about holding up this mirror and taking a hard look at what we are as opposed to what we were created to be. I am totally in your fan club...

KAREN - Are our blog worlds finally colliding? Funny even with blogging there seem to be cliques (not bad... just hard to break in!). Well, we've got quite a melting pot here.

And BEANER... Your transparency continues to convict me. That's the vulnerability I'm talking about. I haven't known you for long, but I can remember when you couldn't say the words. God help us and heal us! Your question is an excellent angle... Who would choose that? Definitely more to come on that.

BLOGHOG... uh, I mean APPRENTICE! Mike, when you've got something like that to say... an apology is never needed! If anyone is just skimming through... go back and read The Apprentice's comment!!! I'm speechless (quite a feat). I'm thinking I need to make a road trip to Oklahoma...

AMY - I'm hoping you won't be the only fly on the wall and praying that your world and your heart will be expanded... Pop in whenever you like!

And TRAVELER! Just wipe your feet off on the welcome mat and come on in. Like I said, we've got a melting pot here, so I'm glad you've joined us. Not quite sure where you're coming from... So I'm trying to get to know you while I read your comment. My appreciation for what you say will grow as I learn more about you (save, your identity!) while we travel.

So, let's keep on moving forward folks!

May the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts be pleasing to Him!
Oct 18, 2006 at 11:15AM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
SHACK! - Remember me? It is good to hear from you. I went to your blog site yesterday and forwarded several people your comments on Haverim. Good stuff bro. I'm not sure what you mean by "thin ice"... unless you mean repercussions from discussing concepts that haven't been traditionally discussed within our fellowship... Keep it up.
Oct 18, 2006 at 02:51PM | Unregistered CommenterJason Harris
that's exactly what I mean, jason. thanks for the thoughts about my blog. i say yours yesterday. quite a family you have there.
Oct 18, 2006 at 03:51PM | Unregistered Commentertheapprentice
Shack - I'll post on your blog to continue this thread. That way we don't get the conversation distracted from the good dialogue here.

Many Thanks Miss Angie...
Oct 18, 2006 at 04:07PM | Unregistered CommenterJason Harris

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