#4 Nitty Gritty
Are people born gay or do they develop their attractions over time? Is there a gay gene? Is it nature or nurture?
I would say it’s important for Christians to explore beliefs about the origins/causes of homosexuality, but it’s not paramount. I cannot find that directive anywhere from my Savior. I think by now you’ve all picked up on my angle – that it’s more important to be open to loving someone right where they are than it is to be able to defend a theory of the development of homosexuality.
The fact is, there is no explanation that is satisfactory to everyone.
- It’s not outlined in scripture.
- The American Psychological Association originally listed homosexuality as a mental disorder in the DSM but later removed it, causing quite a stir. One of the Psychiatrists instrumental in that removal (Robert Sptizer) has since become convinced that sexual orientation can be changed in some cases, so he has changed his stance. I point that out as an example that disagreements still exist among reputable psychiatrists.
- In the early ‘90’s much publicity was drawn to research for a gay gene in the scientific community. The bottom line is that those studies were geared toward such but never were conclusive. Since that time, studies have not been replicated in a way that proves definitively that homosexuality exists at conception. So, this can’t really be an argument for either side!
- Even people who experience same-sex attractions cannot all agree…
So I’m sorry to disappoint… but you will not finish reading this post with “the answer!”
Ultimately, getting down to the nitty gritty is a bit anticlimactic… The good news is you do not have to wait until you are an authority on the subject (as if!) to be in the lives of gay people or open your heart to friends who struggle with SSA! It’s OK to say, “Uh… I don’t know.” In fact, people would be more skeptical of you if you didn’t! And it’s very OK to have an opinion. Just don’t declare it as God’s absolute truth in the matter…
Even though I have developed personal convictions (looking at life through my Christian world view lens and meshing that with the life stories of people who know SSA first hand), I would never discount another person’s experience. As I pointed out earlier, every life story is valid but it certainly isn’t representative of the whole. So, if you know one gay person, you cannot assume that everyone who deals with SSA is just like your friend.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and tell you my opinions. And seriously, I’m not hoping you’ll all get on board with me. My greatest hope is that it would pique your curiosity about some things and prompt you to get into the lives of some of the experts – people who actually experience SSA. I am not offended when people disagree with me. God is constantly shaping my faith and my beliefs as I journey through life, working out my salvation. It’s no different regarding homosexuality. So 10 years from now I might look at this blog and wonder what I was thinking… But this is where I am today.
I’m not convinced that people are born gay. (But Christianity remains the same regardless.) I hold the view that males and females were anatomically designed by God to correspond sexually (part A makes a delivery that part B is specifically suited to receive). But even though I see that as the created design, we live in an imperfect world in which things don’t always work as they were intended. And I can easily understand how this natural design for sex would not feel natural for some.
I lean more toward the idea that a person’s gender identity and attractions develop over time. I believe this starts very early in life and that the root is relational and emotional rather than sexual.
Relationally, guys seem to feel some sort of disconnect with their father (who could have been either absent, distant/neglectful, abusive or seemingly normal) causing real or perceived rejection at a crucial time in which the child needs Dad’s affirmation. Or maybe he simply connected more deeply with mom instead of dad. Emotionally, most express feeling very “different” at an early age. Some felt they did not fit in with their peers because of a more sensitive temperament. If they were more into arts and music instead of sports, the pressures of not fitting into the typical macho culture could alienate and scar. Several have suggested that being molested or early sexual experimentation with the same gender also played a part in their scenario. The things that can play into the psyche are innumerable… I’ve heard things ranging from body image to medical conditions that come to play in gender identity development. All of this is shaping how he sees himself in the masculine world. If he feels he doesn’t fit, then he will always long for this connection. That carries over into puberty when his longings become sexualized.
As for the girls, the scenarios can be vastly different than the guys. Many I’ve known expressed that early on they felt it was not good/safe to be a girl. They perceived being feminine as weak (whether from being victims of abuse or seeing mother abused – verbally or physically), or they perceived being masculine as preferable in order to get daddy’s attention. Some were molested and developed a sexual aversion/hatred toward men while others experienced painful rejection (real or perceived) from a mother who was not nurturing. Again, the possibilities are endless. I’ve known far fewer girls who deal with SSA than guys. I’m unsure if that accurately reflects larger stats, but women’s stories are certainly not in the spotlight as much as the men.
All would agree that they never chose this path. It caused a confusion and depression in them that remained secretive and unresolved because of the stigma attached to homosexuality in our society. Maybe we can’t all agree on the roots of homosexuality, but we can all play a part in attacking the societal stigma that has punished so many undeserving and beautiful people.
Even though this is my framework for homosexuality, I am a student of every school of thought. Again, everyone’s story is unique and different. Though there may be similarities, there is no mold that people who deal with SSA fit into any more than there is for people who deal with addictive behaviors. Someone who believes differently than me can easily pick apart and rebut everything I’ve said above. That’s the nature of an opinion. Getting caught up in a debate about this is not an option for me. That never solves anything, and it certainly doesn’t leave either person any closer to Jesus.
In this blog discussion, I’ve encountered some of the most loving and open-minded folks that I’m proud to call my brothers and sisters. But there are HUGE groups of Christians basing their views of gay people on several Bible verses and a lot of ignorance in regards to what it’s like to walk in their shoes. Those folks are typically the ones without any meaningful relationships with gay people or with those who have vowed to not be mastered by their unwanted SSA. As a general rule, I think people who aren't in relationship with anyone who is gay need to be quick to listen and slow to speak...
Angie
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I love the comment you made...
" I think by now you’ve all picked up on my angle – that it’s more important to be open to loving someone right where they are "
How very true... Does it matter what has separated "someone" from God? How can anyone ever be saved from eternal damnation if you or I cannot, (or worse) refuse to see with the eyes of Jesus? Our part, specifically the child of Gods part, MUST be to have that very kind of love. The kind of love that compels us to be able to sit down and chat with those that are outside God's covenant relationship.And that isn't a talk of condemnation. How can anyone be reached when they are "pounded" into submission. And if they are pounded until they submit, when will that person decide enough is enough and when the pressure to conform is removed, their decision will more than likely take them far away from the one that did the pounding. And what good is that. A talk over coffee can become a chat between friends and then, through a process of sharing one person can talk to the other about what is important to them. I have never tried to tell someone that "whatever" sin has hold of them that they are doomed to eternal damnation because of it. Could you imagine how quick a friendship would end if that was how you started ! There is a better way, and that is why I liked your comment "about taking them where they are" and "loving them enough " to do just that. But you know there is more to it than just that. Every parent knows that. As a dad, I have to guide, guard, and direct ( I know it sounds like a cliche) because of my love for my child. That love will sometimes take on different facets. Sometimes I will even have to tell my child that the path they are on will lead to harm, maybe physical and it maybe spiritual, but my love demands that I help my child where ever and whenever I can. Sometimes that help is made by simply being quiet, also.
Eventually friends will find areas of disagreement. You might disagree with me about most anything and the type of response I offer may end the talk, or it may enhance and further deepen the commitment between friends. Your struggles may seem cut and tried to me but I do not walk in your shoes and that is why I must listen very carefully. I see this issue that way. It matters most to the individual affected how or why they became homosexual.Next on the list would be those that are personally affected. The levels and deepness of hurt inside families because of homosexuality can never be made to seem trivial by anyone. Sin is like that. It spreads like an uncontrollable sickness.
My struggles may be different than the one on this blog, but they are every bit as vital to me as homosexuality is to someone else. I believe what we are talking about is compassion for Gods special creation.
You know which one I am talking about. It is the one made in His image.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts,
Traveler
It wasn't until recently that I came to accept the idea that people don't necessarily "choose" to be gay, or at least that some people have more of an inclination towards it than others because of experiences in their past (as you've very nicely articulated.) I was having a conversation with a good Christian friend of mine and she said, "you know, we live in a fallen world where people are struggling with everything from cancer to heart disease, so it makes sense to me that all of the mental and psychological disorders out there could be part of that same falleness." Light bulb moment for me! I still believe homosexulity is less than God's ideal (and therefore sin), but it helps me to think of homosexuality as the honest struggle some are having with sin, rather than their wanton rebellion against God and all humanity (as some evangelicals would have you believe.)
Also, I know Tony Compollo makes a distinction between homosexual orientation and homosexual behavior, saying that the former is not a sin, but the latter is. Do you think that's a helpful distinction?
Once again,thank you for your gracious and informed thoughts!!!
Personally I do not see the origin of homosexual orientations as a major concern. The reasons I am gay, right-handed, or possess various other attributes are complex, and science has not yet uncovered the factors involved. Perhaps for some Christians the issue is more important with their conception of a fallen world, though many of my fellow gays have also attached a great deal of their political and social aspirations to biological origins. Since I am not a Christian, I will tend to view homosexuality as a natural, healthy expression of human variation, regardless of origin, while Christians who believe such behavior is proscribed by God will tend to see the inclination as an unfortunate byproduct of nature’s corruption, regardless of origin.
In regards to the causes of homosexuality, I understand many people who are of the same opinion as you. And you're right; there does not have to be ONE cause of SSA. That being said, I'll go ahead and state my experiences. I'm treating this as kind of a short autobiography. I'm not saying that aything in here led to my being gay. I'll let others read and come to their own conclusions (personally, I don't read anything into it), and see if their experiences compare.
For starters, I was never abused, emotionally or physically, and I'm very grateful for that. My parents have always been absolutely wonderful people. I really connect with both of them, and I like to think that I always have. Now, for those who haven't read my blog, they're both professional artists, and could rightly have been called hippies in their younger days. So naturally I was a very artistic, expressive, sensitive kid. But unlike my brother and sister, who were extremely sociable and athletic (and thus pretty popular), I was a musch more withdrawn and physically frail (that's a really ugly word, but it works).
Naturally, I was picked on a lot during elementary school. I definitely connected more with girls (for the express purpose that they didn't pick on me). Did this cause some gender identity confusion? I hate to admit it, but to be completely honest, I did secretly experiment with some of my sister and mother's clothes during this time period. But this phase kind of ended with elementary/early middle school, so though it may be important, I really don't dwell on it.
Now, in middle school I defintely started feeling SSA. Even though I was raised Christian, I hadn't heard homosexuality addressed in the church, so my anxiety about my sexuality was secular, because being gay was just one more thing that made me "different" and I really didn't like that.
Around junior high, I fell into viewing pornography (like many of my male peers). I won't speak too much on that. It's a sin no matter what your orientation is, and it's far too common among men. I still struggle with it slightly (as many men do), but I think overall I've moved on.
Now, in high school I definitely started connecting more with guys. I grew a lot, bulked up, started playing sports, and gained a lot of self-confidence through that. I guess you could say I was one of the "popular kids," though I didn't fit into any distinct group. I knew good and well I was gay by that time, though I tried to ignore it. By the end of high school only my brother and my ex-girlfriend knew I was gay. Both are really supportive, even though my brother doesn't think it's a sin (and therefore I haven't really told him that I'm on a more "ex-gay" path).
Oh well. Hope that was coherent. I'm really not good at telling life stories, so if you have any questions, then fire away. I just want to add to the discussion.
TRAVELER, you're becoming a regular! I appreciate you pouring out so much of your heart here. Thanks for kickin' this discussion off, friend!
CRITTER, you're too sweet to me! I'm so glad you mentioned moving away from seeing gay people as rebelling against God and humanity. IMHO, that's yet another misconception that keeps us apart. (And yeah, Tony Campolo's lingo makes sense to me.)
And joining in the discussion is IRRATIONAL ENTITY! Hey, I think I've seen you around the web on occasion... so I'm honored you stopped by here. I know it must take a lot of patience to deal with the Christian community... PUH-LEASE don't lump me in with the rest of the fundies, OK?! We may have that belief chasm between us, but I'd like to think we could still enjoy a movie, be good neighbors, share a cup of coffee, etc. You are welcome here, new friend!
And JAY... Well, you sure are one of the popular kids in my book! THANK YOU TONS for sharing your mini-bio. It adds such a personal dimension. And snaps to your hippie parents for the role they played in making you the man you are today! I'm so thankful to know you!
Angie, I think you know (and most of you who saw my comment the other day know this too) how I feel. I'm not sure I buy the born gay angle. But there's a part of me that doesn't really believe it's something that a gay person *chooses*. So what does that mean? (and that's rhetorical because I don't know.) There is so much about the gay life that I don't really understand. I've learned from my gay friends not to call it a "lifestyle" because that eludes to the assumption that it's a choice which as I just stated, I'm not sure I believe.
I have no experience with anyone in my immediate family being gay. However, I do have experience with a sister (and her family) that have dealt with drugs, sexual abuse, alcohol. I know that all three of her children are heterosexual (as far as I know). However, all three of her children (all were sexually abused) exhibit signs of having sexual issues. By that, I mean the 2 girls were sexually active by choice at early ages. I think this is because they were forced into sex so early. They also saw their mother abused by the many men in their life and so living a life that had any purpose or worth meant that they had to be abused themselves. They both think that the only way to gain true "love" from a man is to submit themselves sexually. So along those same lines, I think that some gay men and women have probably been "pre-disposed" to being gay by past experience. I know this to be true of at least one of my gay male friends.
So the long and short of what I'm saying is, I don't even know what I believe and like you, I don't believe there is really an answer to the question of what "causes" someone to be gay. Genetics play a role in so many things that scientists don't even know about yet. So who knows, maybe there is some genetic pre-disposition. Maybe there is some environmental factor based on how you were raised. But I truly believe that some gay people are just gay. That is who they are.
And example that I love that I heard once, and it is so true, just about every minority has at least one parent who has had the same experiences as their minority children, if a black kid comes home and says that another kid called them a name or something they can share that with their parents and that parent can sympathize/empathize with their child about it. When a gay kid is called a fag at school, believe me they don’t run home and tell their dad, they keep it inside and they don’t ever let it out. That affects the relationship; you don’t want your dad to know you were called a sissy or a fag so you don’t tell them.
I also wanted to touch on your position that: “males and females were anatomically designed by God to correspond sexually (part A makes a delivery that part B is specifically suited to receive)” warning to all who are reading, I’ll be talking sexually here for a minute so stop reading if you have sensitive sensibilities. If this were the only case then why would god make men with a prostate that is every bit as sensitive to stimulation as the penis? What purpose would it serve? Couldn’t he have made a glad to do what the prostate does and not make it a pleasure zone? What reason would there be for such an erogenous zone to be placed in a part of the body that is perfectly situated to make gay sex pleasureable? If the ONLY design was for male/female sex then why put the close equivilant to “the g spot” in the male body? If god made everything perfectly then what was the purpose of that?
:-) Like I said JULES, it's more than OK for you to have an opinion as you think it through and ask questions to gay friends. We're gonna have a couple more blog discussions that may be helpful. I may not have all the answers, but I kinda have an "X-Files" view of truth - it's out there, and I believe! :-)
BRIAN, good to see you back here, man. You really help to broaden the discussion to say the least! BTW, with the whole design of sex thing, I just meant in the realm of reproduction (in that there's no design for receiving semen in anal sex - not that it isn't pleasurable! I'm a virgin... so definitely no experience there!). AND happy blog birthday to you!
FRIENDS...I just hope that from this blog series people might actually start having discussions rather than debates. It seems like it's in THIS discussion that people really sever relationship b/c of disagreement - so needless. It's hard though. I won't lie. Even harder in person b/c you don't have time to think so thoroughly. You can't delete a conversation like you can a blog comment! I WISH!!!
Regarding the design argument, several factors have to be considered. I think we can easily demonstrate homosexual behavior is a current part of nature. Whether this situation is the result of the corruption of a better state is a side debate, but I would argue against that view based on the available evidence. Homosexual behavior has been observed in a variety of our evolutionary cousins. A particular example would be bonobos, which are rather bisexual and quite close to us genetically. The species apparently derives benefits from this behavior, as they have fewer violent conflicts compared to the other species of chimps.
Humans are obviously different from chimps, but we do share a common ancestor with them. Since homosexual behavior has been observed among the living hominid species, I believe we can safely assume similar activities existed among our ancestors. Homosexual behavior is also found in a variety of human societies, so the action is not the invention of a particular group. Sex originated for procreation but has also been adapted for other uses, and for most humans sex is not intended to be procreative. Humans do not have a mating season yet do possess an inclination to bond in small groups including pairs. From what we currently know, homosexuality is an unsurprising variation of human nature.
The moral issue is not directly addressed by this natural variation. Rape is another natural behavior. However I have already noted homosexual behavior in certain species apparently generates benefits for those involved and the species as a whole. Experience in human relations indicates same-sex couples are also capable of benefiting from their relationships in a variety of ways. Unless homosexual behavior threatens the continuation of the species, the activity seems to be natural and generally neutral from a moral standpoint.
Everyone that's posted here over the last week has really been so respectful of others. I cannot tell you how helpful the entire discussion has been and how proud I am of Angie for doing this.
I think if more people were this open, honest and sincere about this topic that the world as a whole could just embrace each other in a big group hug.
I know that many of us here share so many different stories and views on this subject. It's just refreshing to see friendly debate. I know there's still time for things to turn and someone (probably me) to say something totally inappropriate and insensative but so far this is has been a great learning experience.
Angie, thanks again for doing this. For those of you here who are sharing your personal stories, thanks! It helps me, as a mom and a Christian to try and be less judgemental and more understanding.
And JULES, how much do I owe you? If I had to slip you a 5 for every time you've encouraged me lately, I'd be broke! I agree... the respectful dialogue has been an answered prayer (just remember... it's not a debate, it's a discussion!).
I love it when all these different worlds collide! Just makes me feel alive.
nothing to add...you have said all that I could say on this. i'm proud of you.
I think I used to think that any homosushial was living a deliberate life opposed to God. I don't think that any more. My light bulb moment was when friend asked why would they choose so much humiliation, rejection and be a social outcast in some cases.
More recently, God has blessed me by allowing me to know a few people with SSA (I still wonder if they refer to me as an OSA) and in my experience they go to work, pay their bills and are very kind and compassionate.
The difference between my experience and yours Angie is that I've not personally known any that were practicing believers. That brings a whole new dimension to this discussion. I have greatly enjoyed Brian's comments--I want to know his perspective.
I do have one question--I must have missed somewhere--what is ex-gay?
JETTY BETTY! Way to go, girl... with the "I don't know!" And I think it was Beaner who asked the question leading to your light bulb moment. Your OSA reference is proof of how labels are not doing us justice even though we get so caught up in them. BTW, the only gay person who has commented here that shares our Christian world view would be Jay. He shared his mini-bio above. Brian, I believe, is atheist and Irrational Entity is agnostic (correct me if I'm wrong fellas!). And your ex-gay question is the perfect lead in to my next post... though I am going to let this one sit for one more day since it was a week-ender.
I'm glad you guys showed up! Thanks for hanging with me!
I only discovered the whole blogosphere very recently and somehow ended up reading your blog, and I'm deeply moved by the mutual respect people are showing on this delicate topic.
As your post was about causes, I'd like to share some of my impressions and personal experiences concerning the subject. By the way, I'm a 30 year old Christian, gay and celibate man. I do believe it wouldn't be allright with God for me to act on my feelings. I've had struggles in my life, but I've never even been close to having sex with another man. And yes, actually I do match a lot of the characteristics which are set out as contributing factors for ssa in the theories which seem to be widely accepted by those who support the whole ex-gay view. To start of, my (Christian!) family sure had it's share of dysfunctionalities. My mother got schizophrenia when I was 3, and my parents' relationship never really recovered from that. I was in many ways a substitute husband, caring for my mother's enormous emotional needs. There was a lot of inappropriate physical closeness (even as a teenager, she would come into my room, refusing to leave before I hadn'nt hold her in my arms), though no sexual abuse. She manipulated me against my father and I sure did blame him for that she was hurting so much. To make matters even worse, my older brother got so envious of my "special relationship" with my mother that he decided to make my life miserable, demean and terrorize me through much of my early teenage years. (This was the really short version.)
So by the age of 11, I started to have feelings for other boys, though I really couldn't put a name on this experience before I was 13. I became a Christian at the age of 16. As of 18, I actively sought Christian help to deal with my "problem" - and by the way came out to my parents in order to be able to do that, which surely was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. It felt like cutting off my own arm would have been a lot easier.
So over two years, I saw a couselor, moved away from my parents' home, did have more counselling with someone involved with the Living Waters Ministries, spent half a year in Portugal (yeas, really true!), did the actual LW-course. I did have a wonderful pastor I could confide in and be totally honest too. God gave me some incredible friends I could be open to and who for some reason did not start to scream and ran out of the house when I first told them about my ssa (I would call myself gay, actually). And during all those years at university, my family situation got worse and worse with my mother demanding more and more drastically for me to take care of her emotionally ("If I have to go the the (psychiatric) hospital again, it's partly YOUR responsability") and phsysically. I had to cut off any contact with her over a period of 3 years, and since then, we've slowly been trying to rebuild a relationship.
So was it good for me to work through this stuff with pastors, counselors, groups, etc.? Surely yes. Was it good to forgive, to learn how to relate in healthier ways, to find allies whom I can trust, invest into my relationship with God? Absolutely. Did it make me any less gay? The answer clearly has to be: no. So what does that mean?
The thing is that, I'm not even so sure any longer if it were these experiences in themselves that made me gay. Probably they were a contributing factor somehow. They defintely did have quite a negative impact on my life. But things like that and much worse happen in the lifes of so many other men who don't turn out to be same sex attracted. Perhaps in one way or another, there could be a biological factor involved. At least in the sense that it made me react in this particular way to those circumstances. Maybe I would have developped ssa anyway. I honestly don't know.
Very often when I see Christian publications on the subject of homosexuality (and I'm even talking of the moderate view here that ssa in itself isn't a sin) people just seem so sure of what makes people feel ssa. Even worse, as they have completely figured me out, I'm informed that of course I can change if only I'm motivated enough. Personally, I don't have any reason to doubt those who claim this has happened in their life, but sometimes I'm having a hard time when they or others (preferrably those who don't know much about the subject at all) imply that with enough devotion and faith and the case of the origins being so clear it is indeed needless for me or anyone to stay ssa. Which really doesn't correspond to my experience at all.
So yes, I definitely do agree that there is no explanation that is satisfactory to everyone. And one should be very careful about making any kind of over-confident assertions which I've found to be quite hurtful. So thanks again for everyone on this blog for being open and not so categorical.
This has become quite a long comment after all. My apologies if I've drifted into the whole change problematic a bit too much. It's just so linked to the question of the causes. Thanks for reading!
Peter
And what if that blemish was an "inward" one that no one could see? What if it was indeed "sexual orientation"? Would it be a blemish then? Or, would I see it as a defining aspect of my character? And, if I came into contact with the Word of God, and seeing that homosexuality is listed with other sins, how would I be affected?
Would I be able to figure out that God does indeed love me for who I am, and He sent His Son to die for me and my sins, all of them? And could I grow and mature enough to know that God would want me to conform to the image of His Son, forsaking a former walk for a path that leads to glory?
And perhaps the most important question for myself would be if I could recognize that I too, with ALL my blemishes, including the sin of homosexuality, can and will be used to His glory as long as I walk in the light as He is in the light. I would have to recognize that walking in the light would mean that my blemish, whatever it is, must be handed over to God so I can have His strength to overcome.
I know there are fellow travelers on this blog that have stayed away from the love of God. God wants you to come to Him. He weeps if the words and actions of His children are keeping you from Him.
God be with you all,
Traveler
JETTY BETTY, aren't you Miss Manners! Even though I had a very small blog family before this discussion began, we're all still getting to know one another. I'm also appreciative of all these great commenters. It's so great to meet new people like...
...PETER!!! Not sure how you got here, but you sure just made your way into my heart! And you were in Portugal? GET OUT! I lived in Lisbon in 1992-1993. BTW, welcome to the discussion! I can't thank you enough for sharing your story... We're not deserving, but you gave us that gift anyway (such grace!). When you read my next post, you're gonna think I stole a few lines from you! We're on the same page on several things. So, hang around here with us, ok?
Hey there TRAVELER! I lost count of how many questions you asked in your comment! :-) I love that! I'm a huge proponent of asking questions. It's about time we do that rather than claim to have all the answers...