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#6 I'm a Lover, Not a Fighter

Sex, Religion and now Politics? What was I thinking.

Hey friends!

Sorry I played “blog nazi” and shut down the comments yesterday! No comments for you! (Seinfeld reference!) I was doing several things at once & couldn’t give the proper attention to my blog baby… Also, we kinda got started on a strand that was more of a debate about Exodus, which I did not intend. Though a valuable discussion in some circles… it’s not the direction of this particular series. We’re just a small bunch of Christians (predominantly from a Church of Christ background) who want to explore this subject because we’re trying to figure out what it means to respond like our Lord.

Homosexuality and Politics

Once again…I got nothin’! No solid answers. In fact, I am probably the LAST person anyone would ask about anything in the political realm! I have dedicated the majority of my efforts seeking to understand homosexuality through the heart of people and the heart of my God. This focus has left politics on the sidelines. The only thing I believe I can offer here are a few general observations about how to have a Christ-like approach to homosexuality in politics as well as a few statements to really challenge your thinking.

Here’s where I’m coming from…

I do not boycott WalMart or Disney. I drive a Ford Expedition (…and save the comments on my gas-guzzler for a global warming post, please!). No rainbow flags here… but I’m a long-time fan of the Indigo Girls and I love watching Will & Grace.

I’m just saying… I don’t know what I’m supposed to look like as a theologically conservative Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin… but this is who I am. I am much more concerned with the laws that govern people's hearts than with the laws that govern my country. I can only pledge full allegiance to Jesus Christ… though I love my country and the Church of Christ dearly.

I don't know what a Christian view of homosexuality and politics is supposed to look like either.  I’m not gonna go all 'Dixie Chicks' on you, but I have been really disappointed with politics in general. Part of this stems from my lack of understanding. But there's also just that nagging feeling I get when things aren't as they should be.

Recently a friend of mine said, “Angie, lately I have come to a very strong conviction that the influence politics/government has on society pales in comparison to the impact the church can and will have.” And that makes a lot of sense to me. That is not to say I shouldn’t be involved… But it gives me a way to approach politics: in the context of Kingdom living (which may translate into some tough compromises).

I do know this. Where homosexuality is involved, there is a lot of propaganda to sift through. Just because something seems to be from a Christian perspective does not mean that it automatically has God’s stamp of approval on it. For example, fine organizations such as Exodus, Focus on the Family and the American Family Association – though they have many other facets – do have a political slant they want you to buy into. And rhetoric in the form of homosexuality being a threat to the American family really needs to be examined…

I’m still trying to figure out what part to play politically. So, as Christ has guided me throughout my uninvolvement in politics, may His example reign through whatever capacity the Spirit leads me.

Last week Bubba asked a good question:

I would like to hear perspectives on political questions. I live in Tennessee, and a gay marriage ban is on next month's ballot. (I suspect that some political leaders put this issue on the ballot because the "ick factor" draws conservative voters to the polls, but that's not the direction of my question.)
I will probably vote against the gay marriage ban. I'm a minister in a church where that view will be in the minority, so I have to be wise in how and when I argue the case. My sense is that if the impact of the legislation is to deny gay couples health insurance benefits and child custody rights, it flies in the face of command #2 -- "love your neighbor as yourself."
I haven't had time to study what's at stake, so maybe someone can give me highlights of the key issues. From a Christian perspective, why should I vote against this item?

Perhaps since you are a Christian you automatically think “No gay marriage” because it’s a sin. We’re obviously not going to approve gay marriages in our churches… but if we allow gay couples their civil rights, is that an automatic endorsement of their sin or is it forging a pathway to live in peace and show compassion as we all enjoy our freedoms in life. Is there a way to address the reality of the situation politically without compromising our religious beliefs?

I don’t know. Really, I don’t. But to me, this is SERIOUSLY worth my consideration and prayer. Just as I may not look like your average “theologically conservative Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin,” this sort of compromise might not look like the obvious Christian choice. But I think we both deserve a deeper look!

So this is your chance to think about it and discuss it.  Please enlighten Bubba and me!  In order to represent this not-so-mainstream viewpoint, I’m including some excerpts below from an article entitled A Conservative Christian Case for Civil Same-Sex Marriage that can be found on the web here in its entirety.  FYI... This ain't kid stuff.  This viewpoint caused quite a stir for the woman who wrote this article and her husband (a minister).  It destroyed their church and caused them to leave their denomination.  YIKES!  So... I'm just asking!

Supporting other people's civil liberties doesn't say that we necessarily agree with their views of morality or religion. For instance, we don't agree with Buddhists and yet we don't hesitate to stand up for religious freedom. What it does say is that we are willing to get along with others and demonstrate the same respect for them that we wish for ourselves. This is not some radical new idea. It is simply practicing The Golden Rule: "However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12).

That is why we need instead to work toward some kind of mutual respect between our two groups. Perhaps we should even sit down at the bargaining table with the gay movement right now and say, we will respect your right to same-sex marriage in the civil arena as long as you respect our right to exclude it from our churches. Then we ought to join forces and fight like the dickens to keep civil liberties at the forefront of American politics to ensure the protection of our respective interests.

What reason do we have that is so important as to justify barring two people from making this private commitment to each other?  We're squeamish? Well, for sake of civil liberties we'll just have to get over it. We think it's wrong? Well, we think the Buddhist religion is wrong too, but we don't prevent Buddhists from meeting peacefully in this country. We don't want to expand the definition of marriage to accommodate something that isn't true marriage? But we recognize Buddhism as a religion that deserves to be protected under America's freedom of religion clause, even though from a biblical standpoint we believe Buddhism to be a false religion.
We're afraid that supporting civil same-sex marriage will send a message to the gay community that Christians approve of homosexuality? Well, believe me, the gay community is under no such delusion. For years they have listened to our arguments against homosexuality ad nauseam and can even quote all the pertinent Bible verses back to us by heart.

Civil liberties is what gives Christians the freedom to pursue our moral convictions in this country in the first place. It is what guarantees a future for ourselves and our children in which we will be able to practice our religious beliefs free of harassment and fear. It is what paves the way for us to make a true moral impact on our culture, not by trying to legislate the Bible as if that will change people's hearts, but through leading by example as Jesus commanded us: "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16). 

Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 at 11:19PM by Registered CommenterAngie | Comments34 Comments

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Remember folks... save your rants for somewhere else. I'm interesed in hearing any information that can help me form decisions (with respect to the fact that I am coming from a Christian perspective!).

And I have a question... Is there any difference between gay marriage and civil rights for gay couples? I really don't know.

Additionally, I know a lot of my blog friends respect the opinions of Mike Cope - our preacher friend! Here's a link to a blog post he made on this subject:

http://www.preachermike.com/2006/04/12/homosexuality

THANKS to all who have continued reading. This may be just too much for your Thursday... and I get that. But hopefully it can be a springboard for some things to pray about!
Oct 26, 2006 at 08:49AM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
I have to admit that this is a difficult issue for me. I am torn between my belief that marriage is something sacred, instituted by God, and my concern and love for my fellow citizens.

Homosexual "marriage" just doesn't fit into that little box of being something sacred institued by God, because I believe that the Bible, God's Word, clearly teaches that the practice of homosexuality is a sin.

However, I also think it is wrong to deny homosexuals who are in a committed relationship the same rights of health care, insurance, and treatment as family members in cases of emergency, etc.

How do I logically combine those two? I don't know. (Remember, I said earlier that it was okay "not to know" the answers.) It is truly a struggle of the heart for me.

A heretosexual couple can be considered "married" in the legal sense if they simply live together and represent themselves as husband and wife (spouses). But a homosexual couple is not accepted as such, especially for purposes of health care, insurance, rights of relatives, etc.

If I politically give my support for the civil rights of a homosexual couple I am not really saying that I approve of that relationship from a Biblical standpoint,am I? Aren't I just practicing love and compassion for my fellow citizens who deserve the same civil rights that I have? I can still express my belief that from a Biblical perspective the practice of homosexuality is sinful, just as I would express my belief that infidelity in a heterosexual marriage is sinful. Yet, infidelity in a heterosexual marriage does not negate the civil rights of the parties.

I'm thinking as I write - can you tell? I don't have any answers. I'm still thinking. At one point I would have said that I would never vote to approve homosexual marriage. Is it just a matter of the word "marriage" that keeps me so torn about this?

I don't know. (There it is again!) I DO know that I will keep thinking about this and praying about it, and asking God to allow me to see my own sin before I sanctimoniously point out someone else's. And I DO know that this series of posts and comments has been a wonderful opportunity to learn and to love. These are just my very honest, open thoughts on a rainy Thursday morning in Texas.

Thanks, Angie, for giving all of us the opportunity to really hear some different voices and to hear them with love.
Oct 26, 2006 at 11:14AM | Unregistered CommenterNell
Brave soul! Thanks, NELL!!!
I don't know either. It may appear that I have a slant, when in actuality I just think we hardly ever even *hear* the other side because of our belief that it's a sin.

Sweet Nell said, "I will keep thinking about this and praying about it, and asking God to allow me to see my own sin before I sanctimoniously point out someone else's."

Me too!
Oct 26, 2006 at 11:44AM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
I think it was yesterday (this week for sure) that the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled basically the same way as ???(New Hampshire maybe) that same sex unions are entitled to certain civil rights but stopped short of saying they were "marriages". As I understand it they said call them what you want to.

Growing up I don't recall ever hearing a sermon that even mentioned homosexuality but I knew it existed in my little town. I did get it seemed at least 4 or 5 times a year a lesson on Marriage/Divorce/Re-marriage. And let me tell you we had it down pat. We didn't recognize a second marriage that had the false pretense of a "unscriptual" divorce. The (hypothetical they) would have to just break up, tell their kids too bad and pick up the pieces. In a strange way that seems to be similar thinking to me on this. How do we not cut the baby in half? Ok, I am typing as I think and have 100 more questions than relevant things to say...so shutting up here. Over and out, back to the studio and Angie.
Oct 26, 2006 at 11:54AM | Unregistered CommenterTCS
Thanks, THOMAS for that live report. In other news...

I haven't been keeping up with different rulings and such. As I said... I'm not politically savvy.

It does say a lot that this is so hard to tackle though. I really wondered if any of my "regular" blog buddies would even chime in!

But not talking about it doesn't get us any closer. That's why I'm so curious as to how people are thinking...

In the voice of Frasier Crane, "I'm listening..." :-)
Oct 26, 2006 at 12:04PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
I just noticed that I use the ellipsis a lot...

I used exclamation points quite a lot too!!!

Perhaps I'm a "Grammar Queen" - a person given to often excessively emotional performances via punctuation of the written word.

A new sniglet!
Oct 26, 2006 at 12:14PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
The question was posed about how a Christian should respond to homosexuals. Well, how does a Christian respond to strippers? To crack addicts? To those with eating disorders? To adulterers (of which I was)? To murderers, child molesters and rapists?

Rhetorical? Probably. Nevertheless, the truth of the matter is that those who struggle with particular inclinations against which the Bible seems to teach, have been singled out, branded, tried and sentenced by those too narrow minded and self-absorbed to practice what Christ gave his life to insure: grace for all.

Anyway, that's my $.02
Oct 26, 2006 at 02:02PM | Unregistered CommenterRG
The most interesting argument that I have heard about this as of late (and one which it seems like you and a lot of your readers might agree with, Angie) is that government shouldn't be involved in marriage in the first place (from your point of view, because marriage is sacred, not secular). What the government SHOULD do is recognize "unions" between committed couples, regardless of the gender of the participants. So a straight, Christian couple would go to church, get married, and then file paperwork with the government to have a union (which is, I believe, essentially what happens now, except that government recognizes a marriage not a union). The union would come with everything that government marriage does now, it just wouldn't be called that, and thus not equated with an institution which many people feel is sacred.

I think such a situation would solve a lot of the conflicts that people have about this issue, especially for Christians. There then wouldn't be any need to worry about whether or not you are following god: you could support unions for all couples, while still acknowledging that you view marriage is sacred and homosexuality is sinful. Individual churches would also then be able to decide whether or not to perform marriages for gay couples.

I doubt that this situation will come about (or at least that it will come about soon) but it does provide for an interesting thought experiment. So what if some states recognize gay "marriage"? It's not really marriage from a Christian perspective, they're just calling civil unions marriage for everyone, instead of calling them civil unions for everyone. I think you can support even that, but perhaps work within your church/denomination to keep marriage between only straight couples.

That, after all, seems like where it would matter most to you (not to put words in your collective mouths or anything).
Oct 26, 2006 at 02:04PM | Unregistered CommenterSuomiChris
RG... So glad to have you in the conversations here! 'Preciate your 2 cents worth! We're all on board with you on how to respond to homosexuals (though for some it is a theory that needs to be put into practice!). I honestly don't think it would be wise to even have this sort of political chat without going there first. You're so right... We've outdone ourselves on this one. The culture of hatred that surrounds homosexuality is in a league of its own. And when we don't stand up against it... we become a part of it. Thank you for your comment and your confession!

Dude - are you writing from Barcelona? That is so awesome. I read that you're a Christian novelist (and/or screenwriter)? Too cool. Do you have anything published? Share with us if you do! (And Blue Like Jazz is one of my faves too). Safe travels to you, new friend, until God gets you back to Vegas!
Oct 26, 2006 at 03:42PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
YAY! SUOMI CHRIS made it back over here! I was afraid I had totally messed up with you yesterday. It's been so hard to keep up with this blog series and keep us from going off on tangents!

I'm glad you chimed in... I am really interested in exploring this more. It seems to be a solution that kinda quells the raging tensions between our two "sides." Because man... face it, Christians are not going to change on this (that homosexuality is sin). The thing is... Christians must realize that gay people aren't about to change their minds either! We can keep on ignoring it and butting heads... but it really seems to keep us apart.

I think one of the hardest things for Christians with this POV would be sharing it among their churches... If we say we're gonna vote pro gay marriage... I can only imagine reactions among our church communities! The only people I have found who are really wanting to take a more peaceful route are Christians who actually have gay friends - and that ain't a lot. Other people hear "gay" and they tune out.

So... if everyone got to know gay people better, they'd have more compassion. But so much keeps us apart... how are we ever gonna stop this cycle?

Maybe for Christians to take the humble route, blessing our gay neighbors in a way they can tell we really care... yet not sacrificing our own beliefs in the process.

It's the church/government thing you mentioned, I suppose... and that's where I'm weak in knowledge. I don't know nuthin' 'bout all that stuff!
Oct 26, 2006 at 04:02PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
Ok I wrote a LONG post earlier, reread it and then decided not to publish it. Only because I contradicted myself.

Todd (my husband) and I have been talking about these discussions and he would like to get in on the dialogue, but just doesn't have the time to. He is so busy in post-grad school and that is about all he can think about outside of our family, of course, and his job. He would really add some flava to this thing, but for now, he hears about it from me and we hash it out a bit. So these are my thoughts only, not his.

I appreciate SuomiChris' post above. Thanks for your attitude towards those of us who are new to a discussion on this level. It may be common or normal for you to have these types of discussions since it is something you are obviously passionate about, but there are many on this forum who haven't talked about homosexuality AT ALL, and for sure the idea of gay marriage is something we are wrestling with. So, I genuinely appreciate what you said and the spirit in which I received it.

I really do think that there must be some peaceful "middle" that can be reached. There just must be. SuomiChris really said what I think I was thinking earlier but maybe put a little more "flesh" to it. I am thinking particularly about gay families that have children involved in the picture. I would hate to think that these kids would be "punished", should they lose a parent, by not receiving what would be due them by way of government benefits. I don't even know if that makes sense. I know what is in my head, but am having a hard time articulating it.

I don't think that gay marriage should be legalized, instead maybe the recognition of a "union" as Chris said above. However, as a married woman and mother, I recognize how absolutely hard it is to be married somtimes. I mean, marriage is HARD work. I love my husband, am completely devoted to him. I entered into a covenant with him and that is no small thing. Really. So for a gay couple to be equally committed to one another, deeply devoted and "in it for the long haul" is simply no small thing either. I don't really know what I'm trying to convey here either other than the fact that there must be some very committed people out there that are gay, but deeply love one another, and give their lives, every ounce of energy to making that relationship work, come what may, and if I were them, to do all of that WORK, and not be recognized by the govt in order to receive those benefits sure seems off balance to me, and if it were me, I would argue for benefits too. Ok Angie, I know that was a run on sentence, and lots of grammatical errors, sorry, I couldn't stop the thought.

Ok so that is what I have been mulling over this afternoon. If I offended anyone, my apoligies. Not what I intended, I was thinking out loud. I don't do that very much because of the risk it brings and consider this a vulnerable post for me.

I'm done. Gotta go get the pumpkin chocolate chip muffins out of the oven.

Love you Angie...
Oct 26, 2006 at 04:48PM | Unregistered CommenterFelicia
RG,

I think I get what you wanted to say and totally support your point, but please be careful how you phrase things. In your first paragraph, you were probably referring to homosexual ACTS. The way you couched it (and this makes me cringe everytime I hear or read this), it seems to me you put my BEING homosexual on the same level as a committed murder or rape. I'm not a murderer until I've actually killed someone (deliberately, as an act of will). However, even if I'd never have had a single "lustful" thought about other men (and those, I believe, are sinful), I'd still BE homosexual, because I AM attracted to other men, it's not a voluntary decision for me to make, and I don't believe it is sinful to acknowledge that "Hey, I'm really attracted to that guy" and then just leave it there. Unless you'd say that the attraction in itself is sinful (which I don't think you do, but many unfortunately see it this way). For me, the attraction I experience is an expression of the fallen creation in which we live, and by the way were never intended to live in. I'm sorry I'm being a bit oversensitive here, but believe me, plenty of people with ssa are and will shut down if you put things this way. But to underline your point: Someone once said (and I can't remember who) that we cannot be proud of resisting temptations that were not really tempting us in the first place.

On the political question I can only support SuomiChris. The only issue I'm unsure about is whether or not that union would/should imply the possibility of adoption. I tend to say no.

I won't have Internet access during a couple of days, but I'm looking forward to reading more comments afterwards.
Oct 26, 2006 at 05:11PM | Unregistered CommenterPeter
Wow, FLEE... a lot to think about. Sure wish Todd could join in too. I'd love to hear from him.

Hey... we're all just "thinking online" here. REALLY thinking something through is not for wimps. It's scary... Just asking questions in some Christian circles is hard!

So we're picking this idea apart... but perhaps there are things we're overlooking about opposing gay marriage? If anyone wants to go there... you won't get pounced. We need to know that reasoning as well.
Oct 26, 2006 at 05:30PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
Hey PETER! The sensitivities to language is a good point. Seems like the rub in this situation is between orientation and behavior, which you pointed out.

Words carry a lot of weight. That's been one of the sources of my persistent headache throughout this series... How do I convey what's in my heart to:
(1) Christians who are new to this subject
(2) Christians who aren't
(3) Christians who are ex-gay
(4) Gay people who are non-Christians
(5) Gay Christians who live in monogamous same-sex relationships (we haven't even touched this subject)

Some people don't self-identify as gay. Some do. Then there's the whole language and culture of the gay world and even the ex-gay movement...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

Interpersonally, I just find out what the person I'm talking to is comfortable with and go with it...

Online... I'm destined to mess up! :-)

Well, Peter, I'll be here whenever you get a chance to stop by again... Ciao!
Oct 26, 2006 at 05:58PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
Peter, if I'm not mistaken it was C.S. Lewis who made that observation about resisting temptation.

Unfortunately, I am a flip-flopper about this issue. It all comes down to how big a role faith needs to play in government. Some would say there's not enough of it; some would say there's too much. I'm undecided. SuomiChris' opinion is one that I can definitely respect and might eventually hold myself. I don't understand the Christians who scream that homosexuality is leading to cultural decline. Come on, can one really say that our attitudes towards homosexuality (or sexuality in general) were healthier in the 40s and 50s? A lot of people think so, but I know that I would be in a much unhappier place if I was growing up in those time periods (especially here in the South).
Oct 26, 2006 at 06:14PM | Unregistered CommenterJay
I got nothing! Except for the same struggles that you have articulated already. All I know is that it is easy to hold certain opinions when they are merely ideals or theories. It is when you have faces to put on the issues that it changes. For me anyway. Thank God for his grace and mercy on us all!
Oct 26, 2006 at 07:20PM | Unregistered CommenterArlene Kasselman
I think SuomiChris has a good idea on the subject. The current issue is civil in nature. I can find a partner of the same sex and get married at the local Unitarian church, but the government would not recognize the relationship. At the same time, several churches consider divorcee marriages to be adulterous while the government recognizes the union. Unfortunately I do not think the political situation will develop along those lines.

Peter, the available studies indicate children of same-sex couples turn out as well-adjusted as those raised by opposite-sex couples. While studies should continue to be done, the general consensus of the major mental health organizations is gay couples are quite capable of properly raising children.
Oct 26, 2006 at 08:14PM | Unregistered CommenterIrrational Entity
I wanted to clarify something...when I mentioned children being raised by gay couples, I wasn't saying that I think they should or shouldn't. I am saying that it IS happening now whether it is frowned upon or not and those children should not suffer at the hands of the govt, if they even would in the event that a parent died. Make sense?

And about foster care and/or adoption....i have a big place in my heart for these kids since my husband and I worked at a children's home for many years. This is a tough one because there is never a waiting list for parents who want to foster. They aren't exactly busting down the doors if you know what I mean. If it was a safe, nurturing, loving environment, and there were no other options for that child, I could see where there could be a place for gay couples to adopt/foster.

Just some thoughts. I'm still thinking about them. Not totally sure still and definitely have more questions than answers.
Oct 26, 2006 at 08:30PM | Unregistered CommenterFlee
"""Civil liberties is what gives Christians the freedom to pursue our moral convictions in this country in the first place. It is what guarantees a future for ourselves and our children in which we will be able to practice our religious beliefs free of harassment and fear."""

No Civil Liberties are not what allows me to pursue my moral convictions as a Christian- my duty, loyalty and covenant relationship with God the Father through God the Son is what gives me that "authority". If it were based on Civil Liberties then a Christian in a totalitarian government would be free from the command to be that light, that city set on a hill.

There is a supreme difference between Civil Rights and Social Rights. Homosexuality is not a civil rights issue. It is however a moral and ethical issue for a society, which makes it a social rights issue. Our legal system has a Judeo-Christian foundation and because of this civil rights are separate and distinct from social rights. Civil rights have as their foundation the contractual agreement between the government and the governed based on a set of absolutes, which are termed many times as inalienable rights.

Social rights on the other hand are founded in the ill-defined world of societal norms. Simply put civil rights are absolute and social rights are provisional and at best determined by what some in a society would term- fair. Notice I said homosexuality is a matter of social rights and I did not say the one claiming to be homosexual had no civil rights. As a Christian, I must unconditionally support the basic dignity and humanity of all those created in the image of God.
But as a Christian, I cannot support or defend attitudes, acts, or actions of those created in the image of God if they violate the nature of God their Creator. "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in you minds because of your evil behavior."- (Colossians 1:21) As a Christian, I cannot condone behavior or legislate for behavior that causes someone else to be alienated from God by that behavior because in doing so my behavior would then make me an enemy of God.

Don
Oct 26, 2006 at 10:59PM | Unregistered CommenterDon Neyland
JAY, At least you flip-flop... I don't even know where I stand at all politically (in any realm!)

Yeah ARLENE... Bottom line still is...I don't know.

IRRATIONAL ENTITY... I'm soaking it all in!

And FLEE, don't worry hon... We're all bound to be at least a little misunderstood here! It's hard to express everything!

Great! Someone new has joined the discussion... Welcome DON! From LA? Howdy Neighbor... I'm next door in MS! Glad you joined the discussion. I know you're not alone in your POV... It's just been highly under-represented here. These things bring up so much passion and are very hard to articulate, so it takes a brave soul! I just hope I'm not blacklisted just for asking questions! :-) So... your comment is a foreign language (political-speak) that I'm gonna have to digest. I wish I'd paid more attention in government class! EEEEK!

Side Note: Hope this encourages more folks to share viewpoints along this line. And you guys w/opposing views... SHARE THE FLOOR with others! :-) Don't make me go "blog nazi" again!

Oct 26, 2006 at 11:24PM | Unregistered CommenterAngie
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